Trumpet 3 missing Notes

edited November 2018 in General Questions
I seem to have been hit by a bug that supposedly only is relevant for Breath controller users. But for those it results in dropping notes while playing (especially when doing trills) which is really displeasing.



I suppose the problem can be reproduced with a Breath controller or with any DAW by Midi programming, so I just provide a description how to create the behavior.





- no blowing (BC = 0), no key pressed

- press a key on the keyboard

- increase BC to produce a sound

- press another key .e.g. higher (legato upwards)

- release th second key (legato downwards = trill)

- stop blowing (BC -> 0, still holding the first key

- increase BC intending to trigger the sound creation. IMHO now the key still pressed should (again) be used to determine the note.



But no sound is heard.



-Michael
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Comments

  • edited 2:29AM
    Any help on this issue ? (Do other libraries also feature this bug ? Maybe it's a Kontakt problem ???)



    -Michael
  • edited 2:29AM
    Bump again......



    -Michael
  • edited 2:29AM
    No idea how to overcome this problem ?



    -Michael
  • edited 2:29AM
    Hi, Michael. I use wind controller and can confirm this doesn't happen there, likely because it sends unique key up/down on each note of the trill. I did try on BC mode though and can reproduce what you describe. It only seems to happen after a trill though where you never release note#1. The only workaround I see is to release and re-press the original note. Does appear to be inconvenient as the BC->0 normally appears to work as expected until you happen to play a trill as you describe which would be frustrating with live playing.



    I doubt my answer helps you much but wanted to let you know that I can reproduce what you described.
  • edited 2:29AM
    Many thanks for testing and confirming the problem.



    When playing with keyboard and breath controller, you can hardly avoid the situation, as this results from "naturally" performing with this equipment. After some decent training with the BC you will always trigger the notes with breath, pressing the key in advance or holding it pressed whenever appropriate. With this technique (and due to the multiple real time controls the TEC BBC v2 offers) I feel using the BC you can play even more versatile and "natural" then with a wind controller. (I do have a wind controller, but retired it. )



    I also use multiple SWAM instruments, and those do not feature this issue.



    So I suppose this needs to be called a bug of the Kontakt bases Sample Modeling Trumpet, and only can be mended by the Sample Modeling engineers.



    I desperately hope for help from SM !



    -Michael
  • edited 2:29AM
    I can also confirm that Horns and Trombones behave this way as well when in BC mode, so it's not specific to Trumpet.
  • edited 2:29AM
    I just noticed this as well. I am using Kontakt 5.7.1 Perhaps that is the problem?
  • edited 2:29AM
    Perry wrote: I am using Kontakt 5.7.1
    Same here. Do you suggest an older Kontakt version might not provide that issue ?

    -Michael
  • It seems to be due to the last Kontakt 5.7.1 update. Retriggering is no longer working in BC mode. Could you please try WC mode as a provisional workaround.



    Giorgio
  • Of course in WC mode, triggering a note will occur by pressing a key, rather than when CC2 overcomes a threshold value. We will immediately contact Native Instruments for a fix.



    Giorgio
  • edited 2:29AM
    Giorgio Tommasini wrote: We will immediately contact Native Instruments for a fix.
    So this in fact is a Kontakt issue !

    Thanks,

    -Michael
  • Hi all.



    Can you first verify that retriggering, i.e. playing a note, overlapping another note (legato), releasing this second note and therefore coming back to the sound of the first note, is indeed working in BC mode with the Trumpet3, or Trombone3, in the latest build of Kontakt 5.7.1 (R35)?



    Please let us know.



    Thanks,



    Giorgio
  • edited 2:29AM
    I'm on 5.7.1 (R35). What I see is this when in breath control mode:



    1) Press key down D3, but CC2=0.... no note sounds, as expected.

    2) While D3 is held, increase CC2, note starts, as expected.

    3) While D3 is held and CC2 constant and non-zero, press key down E3. E3 sounds, as expected.

    4) While D3 and E3 are still held down and CC2 still constant and non-zero, lift key E3. D3 sounds again, as expected.

    5) While D3 is held and CC2 constant and non-zero, press key down E3. E3 sounds, trilling as expected

    6) While D3 and E3 are still held down, bring CC2 to zero, then back up. E3 sounds, as expected.

    7) While D3 and E3 are still held down and CC2 still constant and non-zero, lift key E3. D3 does NOT sound, unexpectedly.



    Alternately as step 5) While D3 is still held down, bring CC2 to zero, then back up. D3 does NOT sound, unexpectedly.



    So trill retriggering works until you get a CC2=0 in the mix.



    --John
  • edited 2:29AM
    I could do a Reaper JSFX script that prevents CC 2 from going to zero but use 1 as a minimum.



    I also could so a script that with CC 2 = zero sends a note-off for the last note detected and with CC going non zero sends a note on for that note (unless another note on had been detected in between).



    But this of course is a clumsy work around; a decently working instrument would be a lot nicer.



    If this really is a Kontakt issue and can't be mended by SM, that would be really bad news, as I doubt NI will react in an acceptable time frame, while I do trust in SM.



    -Michael
  • Thanks John, you perfectly nailed down the issue.



    As you know, in BC mode, a note is triggered when CC2 overcomes a certain threshold (about 9). When it falls below the threshold a note-off is issued.



    If the key is still pressed and the time lapse is less than the sample length, about ten seconds, a new note-on is issued.



    This is correct, and corresponds to what has been requested by many. If the threshold had been set to zero, one could not control note on/off with the BC.



    Retriggering in Kontakt 7.5.1 (r35), in BC mode, effectively works until CC2 does not drop below the note-off threshold. If this occurs after any legato, and therefore after trills, the instrument resets to the initial state. In this case raising again CC2 above the threshold, even if a key is still pressed, does no longer yield a note-on. One needs to press again a key to restore the normal behavior.



    The same issue appears in previous versions of Kontakt, as for example 5.5.2.



    We will try to fix it in a next release of all our Brass.



    Thanks all for reporting this.



    Giorgio
  • edited December 2017
    Giorgio Tommasini wrote: We will try to fix it in a next release of all our Brass.
    Great !

    So we don't need to wait for NI to fix anything.



    I really hope that such a release will be available really soon, as playing with the BC is decently hampered by that issue.



    -Michael
  • Interestingly enough, this issue is present since the very first release of version 3 of all our Brass. They behave exactly in the same manner in Kontakt 4. Nobody reported it so far ;-)



    It's definitely not related to Kontakt, my mistake. Anyway, we will try to fix it, as said, in a next release. Is there anything else that you would like to see in the future update?



    Best,



    Giorgio
  • edited 2:29AM
    Giorgio Tommasini wrote: Nobody reported it so far ;-)

    Seemingly there are not many Breath Controller users who do enough live playing to develop the "advanced" technique of leaving the key pressed and re-trigger the note by breath, and be hit by the problem.



    In fact I did an extensive BC playing training with SWAM instruments, that do not feature this problem, and hence I was able to get used to this playing style, and when staring to use the Trumpet, I found that certain notes in the stream did not play. After that, it took me a while to find out the exact way to recreate the problem.



    Thanks for listening to your users !

    -Michael
  • edited 2:29AM
    As it seems to last some time until the SM devs can create an update, I did a Reaper plugin.



    Maybe it's not perfect, but it helps a lot with that issue,

    -Michael


    </s><i> </i>desc:MIDI Trumpet Bugfix //tags: MIDI processing filter //author: MSchnell @init CC_MSG = 0xB0; // 11; EXPRESSION = 2; NOTE_ON = 0x90; NOTE_OFF = 0x80; minnote = 52; maxnote = 84; notes = 0; notescount = maxnote - minnote + 1; killed = 0; e0 = 0; @block while (midirecv(mpos, msg1, msg2, msg3) ) ( statusHi = msg1 & 0xF0; channel = msg1 & 0xF; (statusHi!=0xF0) && statusHi ? ( // Time code etc // x = StatusHi; mute = 0; statusHi == CC_MSG ? ( // CC Message msg2 == EXPRESSION ? ( msg3 ? ( e0 = 0; // expression &gt; 0 killed ? ( killed = 0; i = minnote; loop (notescount, vel = notes[i]; vel ? ( // notes[i] = 0; midisend(mpos, NOTE_OFF | channel, i, 0); midisend(mpos, NOTE_ON | channel, i, vel); ); i += 1; ); ); ) : ( e0 = 1; killed = 1; ); ); ) : statusHi == NOTE_OFF ? ( notes[msg2] = 0; !e0 ? killed = 0; ) : statusHi == NOTE_ON ? ( notes[msg2] = msg3; !msg3 ? ( !e0 ? killed = 0; ) : ( killed = 0; ); ); !mute ? midisend(mpos, msg1, msg2, msg3); ); ); <e>
  • edited 2:29AM
    Giorgio Tommasini wrote: Anyway, we will try to fix it, as said, in a next release.
    I am more and more using the Trumpet with good results, as I get some degree of training with it.



    My workaround Reaper script does help a lot (Otherwise I could not use the trumpet), but it's not

    perfect. From time to time I still get missing (unplayable) notes.



    Any news regarding an update ?



    -Michael
  • edited 2:29AM
    Giorgio Tommasini wrote: We will try to fix it in a next release of all our Brass.

    Any hope ... ?



    -Michael
  • edited 2:29AM
    Monthly reminder:



    Still desperately waiting for this updated ...



    -Michael
  • edited 2:29AM
    Yet another monthly reminder:



    Still desperately waiting for this updated ...



    Anybody still alive round here ?!?!?



    -Michael
  • edited 2:29AM
    Yet another monthly reminder:



    Any hope for a fix for this confirmed bug ?



    Anybody still alive round here ?!?!?



    -Michael
  • Yes, we're alive, and working hard, Michael. But we have a scale of priorities. And we're going to respect them.



    It will take time, but these minor bugs, or limitations, will be fixed, rest assured,



    Giorgio
  • edited 2:29AM
    Thanks for the message. I suppose you do understand that I am (we all are) slightly alienated by the silence....



    Staying confident...

    -Michael
  • edited 2:29AM
    Yet another monthly reminder...

    -Michael
  • edited 2:29AM
    :( Sad Face, still no solution?



    This is quite unusual for this firm. They're usually rather fast on bug fixes :shock:
  • edited 2:29AM
    Yet another monthly reminder...

    -Michael
  • edited 2:29AM
    Monthly reminder for October 2018...



    -Michael

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