lowest possible Breth pressure CC value
This is not exactly a Wind Controller issue, but I in fact see this with my "TEC BBC" Breath Controller, but the same issue can be seen with a Wind Controller (e.g. my WX7, but same is too worn out and sloppy to produce reliable results) and of course with any other equipment (hardware or software) that creates appropriate CC values.
I installed the "Flutes" VST in "Reaper", I loaded the "default Breath Controller" configuration and each flute instrument does work nicely.
But I found that when the Breath CC value slowly is increased (which can be seen as well in a "Midi Monitor", I can activate Reaper, as in the main Screen of the Swam instrument), no sound is produced until a Value of (seemingly) 8 is reached. Now a (rather) sharp attack is generated, which of course would be correct if the CC value would hop from 0 to 8. I see that SWAM detects harsh increases in the CC value and generates appropriate attacks (including a virtual "Note on") in the "default BC configuration" (and in the "default Wind Controller" configuration, but no Note-On in the "default Keyboard" configuration), which is perfectly correct.
But IMHO, if the CC value is e.g. "1", and stays at this point, after a short detection time SWAM should produce a very soft attack and a very soft sound, so that the player can start a crescendo from close to silence.
There are sliders "attack start" and "Expr Trigger Sens" that might or might not be meant for setting the minimum value of the Breath CC that is supposed to create a sound. (This would be appropriate for Wind/Breath controllers that fail to generate lower CC values). But these sliders do not show any noticeable effect for me.
Is this by design (and hopefully mended in a new release of the Flutes), is something wrong with my configuration (how to check this), or do I do something wrong ?
I can tweak the Presure-to-CC-Value curve with the BBC in a very wide range, but as this is a Result of the CC values 1...7 simply being ignored, this does not help at all.
Anyway, the Flutes sound great !
-Michael
I installed the "Flutes" VST in "Reaper", I loaded the "default Breath Controller" configuration and each flute instrument does work nicely.
But I found that when the Breath CC value slowly is increased (which can be seen as well in a "Midi Monitor", I can activate Reaper, as in the main Screen of the Swam instrument), no sound is produced until a Value of (seemingly) 8 is reached. Now a (rather) sharp attack is generated, which of course would be correct if the CC value would hop from 0 to 8. I see that SWAM detects harsh increases in the CC value and generates appropriate attacks (including a virtual "Note on") in the "default BC configuration" (and in the "default Wind Controller" configuration, but no Note-On in the "default Keyboard" configuration), which is perfectly correct.
But IMHO, if the CC value is e.g. "1", and stays at this point, after a short detection time SWAM should produce a very soft attack and a very soft sound, so that the player can start a crescendo from close to silence.
There are sliders "attack start" and "Expr Trigger Sens" that might or might not be meant for setting the minimum value of the Breath CC that is supposed to create a sound. (This would be appropriate for Wind/Breath controllers that fail to generate lower CC values). But these sliders do not show any noticeable effect for me.
Is this by design (and hopefully mended in a new release of the Flutes), is something wrong with my configuration (how to check this), or do I do something wrong ?
I can tweak the Presure-to-CC-Value curve with the BBC in a very wide range, but as this is a Result of the CC values 1...7 simply being ignored, this does not help at all.
Anyway, the Flutes sound great !
-Michael
Comments
Thanks a lot for your answer.
I did try all three settings of "Attack sens."
It does not make any difference for me. Neither regarding the issue I described, nor did I notice any other modification in the behavior of the SWAM instrument. Does this make a difference for your Flute ?
What about your Flute installation ?
When very slowly increasing the breath pressure from zero and watching the CC value written below the "Expr" Bargraph on the Flute's main screen, When do you hear a sound ? For me this is not before a "8" appears. This is what I don't think is desirable.
BTW.: I have some difficulties to understand the meaning of the parameter description in the SWAM handbook. I believe the term "Attack" is used in two different meanings: either the steepness of the incoming CC value curve ("Blow attack") or the harshness of the start of the sound created by the virtual instrument ("Sound attack"). In the manual at several locations I can't tell these from one another (Also with some more words, the manual often is not clear whether the cause or the result - the input signal or the output signal - is meant.) As with many setting I don't notice any change (and the manual does not say if I really should not, becaus that setting is only active with something else being set - e.g. I never notice any "Portamento", "Glissando" or "Sustain" whatsoever ), just trying out does not help either.
Thanks again,
-Michael
I found out that the "Chomatic" switch set to "on" in the extended parameters switches on a (non-chromatic but continuous) portamento. Funny.
With this switched on, I hear a portamento when pressing a key softly while holding the previous key. But only when the keys are more than some five semitones but less than 12 semitones different. Moreover with some key combinations there is no portamento.
According to the docs I feel there should be a portamento with this switch off and a chromatic gliss with this switch on. (With small intervals always a portamento and never a gliss)
I did not succeed in really producing a chomatic gliss at all, but I can have a Trombone-Flute, which physically is possible, but not very common
-Michael
But I found that when the Breath CC value slowly is increased (which can be seen as well in a "Midi Monitor", I can activate Reaper, as in the main Screen of the Swam instrument), no sound is produced until a Value of (seemingly) 8 is reached. Now a (rather) sharp attack is generated, which of course would be correct if the CC value would hop from 0 to 8.
Welcome to the club, Michael!
I reported the issue half a year ago:
http://www.samplemodeling.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=938
Nobody from SWAM team answered so far.
At least I now know that it is not just my setup that does not work as expected.
So I wrote a private message to the SWAM support team.
-Michael
sorry for the missed reply. We overlooked the message. :oops:
You are right: the threshold changes with the expression curve, and this is not good.
We've fixed the issue, so the next update will include this fix.
Sorry for the inconvenience.
While waiting for the fix, I can suggest to use a MIDI remapper to remap the expression so that the threshold is reached earlier. For those using Logic Pro X, there is a simple "MIDI Modifier" included in the MIDI FXs (see the attached picture).
For example, if you want to use the expression curve "Lg 0.6" (threshold = 10), add 9 so that the actual threshold will be 10-9 = 1 and compress the range setting the scale parameter to 90% (see the attached picture).
Best,
Emanuele
Samplemodeling/SWAM team
Thanks for listening !
The REC BBC comes with a very sophisticated tool to set the "breath-pressure-to-CC-value" - curve and the "lip-pressure-to-CC-value" - curve:
- start-point (CC=1),
- end-Point (CC=127),
- curvature starting steep ... linear ... starting shallow in fine steps
- low pass filter attack and release.
So this is perfectly cared for.
I'll take another look at the SWAM expression curves....
BTW.:
Did you take a look at the "chromatic" issue I described. I believe this does not work as intended due to a software problem or because I fail to set the parameters correctly.
(In fact the manual saying that for small intervals there is always a portamento but no gliss, seems like appropriate for the Sax but not for a Flute which I suppose can't "bend" more than a semitone. )
BTW/2.:
When you do a software upgrade please do consider to improve the manual. As a professional programmer, I read (and wrote) a lot of software manuals. Nonetheless (or even because of this) I have difficulties to understand the SWAM manual text. in many places to me it's not clear if a certain phrase is meant to describe the input (Midi messages) or the output (sound to be produced). Especially the term "Attack" is not defind in a way that I understand.
Regarding the issue in question I suppose that a harsh sound start ("attack") should be produced when a "blow attack" is detected (the "expression" CC values are rising very fast and/or the key on event comes in with a high velocity value). Of course the SWAM engine uses several important (but not always "obvious") parameters to define the behavior of the sound as a consequence of the value and timing of the incoming expression CC, key-on, key-off and velocity. I understand that this is the basic of the unique realism that is possible with SWAM.
Regarding "portamento" and "chromatic", I fail to find any description how this is supposed to work in the manual that has anything in common with the behavior I see in the software
Thanks again,
-Michael
Playing with the expression curve parameter I find that there is no setting that I feel comfortable with, even if the zero-point is adjusted (via the TEC software), so that the sound stops close to no breath pressure when very slowly decreasing it .
If setting the slider to the left, a harsh attack sound can't be avoided even if very slowly increasing the breath pressure.
If setting the slider to the right you really can fade in the sound without a harsh attack, but here the sound starts with a rather high breath pressure and stops only when decreasing it a lot below the starting point.
In fact the default setting (expression curve slider in the middle) is nicely playable, only a smooth crescendo is not doable. For me, other settings are not easily playable.
Maybe it's just me feeling uncomfortable with that and a correct physical model really dictates such behavior.
What I would expect is that the basic sound intensity is a rather straight forward function of the CC value, while the attack is a function of the initial steepness the CC values raise from Zero. Resulting in close to no attack in the sound when increasing the pressure very slowly, and a transition between no sound and a soft sound (in both directions) always rather close to CC=0 (i.e. not a huge threshold as we now have very noticeable with the "expression curve" slider moved to the right). But maybe this is nonsense regarding the underlying physics and I just need to learn to handle the Breath Controller correctly.
-Michael