ewi and growl
Hi everybody, I´m new at this forum, and had been using the trumpet for about a month, and I´m very happy with it. Since I´m a sax player myself, I only bought the trumpet, I already have a decent sax around!
As a sax player, I trend to use the trumpet software, coupled with my akai ewi, in a very wind player fashion. I mean, no keyswichts, and no modulation wheel for the vibrato, no premade fallouts, but real note by note ones. That helps me to make the thing more alive, more sensitive. My vibrato stars at the deep I want and evolves as I want it to, simply by bitting the mouthpiece, and my falls are just at the volume I would play them with my real sax, by just fingering them and changing the air pressure. So I´m quite happy with the trumpet, but... What about the growl?
I own the akai ewi 4000 for about a year now, and the only thing I like from its internal sounds is the ability to make them growl, by singing/humming/screaming on its mouthpiece as I play. It´s very similar to the growl on the sax, it can change from subtle to extreme, and I like it. Unfortunetly that´s something I can´t do when I´m playing the trumpet software. I have asigned the growl to a controler, but it is very unfunny to use it, and doesn´t sound very realistic at all. I don´t know if it is possible to get the natural growl playing technique to sound somehow. Assigning the volume to the mouthpiece sensor does only change the volume, not the sound itself.
If not I would like to suggest to the developers of these instruments to try to achieve it, if possible. The inteligent and moderate use of the growl is part of what makes a real solo become something exciting, personal and original, just like vibrato.
That´s all, sorry about the long writing!
As a sax player, I trend to use the trumpet software, coupled with my akai ewi, in a very wind player fashion. I mean, no keyswichts, and no modulation wheel for the vibrato, no premade fallouts, but real note by note ones. That helps me to make the thing more alive, more sensitive. My vibrato stars at the deep I want and evolves as I want it to, simply by bitting the mouthpiece, and my falls are just at the volume I would play them with my real sax, by just fingering them and changing the air pressure. So I´m quite happy with the trumpet, but... What about the growl?
I own the akai ewi 4000 for about a year now, and the only thing I like from its internal sounds is the ability to make them growl, by singing/humming/screaming on its mouthpiece as I play. It´s very similar to the growl on the sax, it can change from subtle to extreme, and I like it. Unfortunetly that´s something I can´t do when I´m playing the trumpet software. I have asigned the growl to a controler, but it is very unfunny to use it, and doesn´t sound very realistic at all. I don´t know if it is possible to get the natural growl playing technique to sound somehow. Assigning the volume to the mouthpiece sensor does only change the volume, not the sound itself.
If not I would like to suggest to the developers of these instruments to try to achieve it, if possible. The inteligent and moderate use of the growl is part of what makes a real solo become something exciting, personal and original, just like vibrato.
That´s all, sorry about the long writing!
Comments
I did not know that you can do Growl with an EWI 4000 and it's a very good surprise
Even if i am almost sure that the EWI USB will not offer this feature i will chek this (i plan to buy the cheapest model this year cause the 4000 is too expensive for me and my low dexterity).
I am very interested with what samplemodeling will do with this information but i have question for you.
Aside from the internal sound generator did you check in your sequencer what MIDI event was recorded. I mean, does the EWI transmit the growl information or may be is it only used by the internal sound generator (this would be too bad
BTW have you a personal web site where to listen about your music
Regards
Valère
Sorry I have no information about the usb ewi, I only can tell you about the 4000. It definitly does have the possibility to make the sounds growl.
About the sequencer recording midi... well unfortunetly I did expend ALL of my money to buy a mac book pro, so I don´t have a serious sequencer, just garage band. It is a very simple program, actually it only records four diferent midi events, and none of them seems to be afeccted by growling in my ewi
And about my personal web page... sorry I don´t own one. I´m a mainly instrumentist oriented musician, I mean, all of my efforts went till now to become a proficient sax player (and even if I think i´m slowly getting near to this, there´s still a long way
Anyway if you are really very interested on my playing, I suppose I could make something with a Aebersold playalong and post it
Bye
I often use the glide plate for growl. I just need to set the CC of the glide plate to 21. Setting it to 23, I can control flutter. So I usually switch the CC number between 05, 21 and 23.
This is a reason to buy the 4000s instead of the USB version, because the USB version lacks the glide plate (as far as I know; I read it on the Akai webpage).
If you cannot switch the CC number for the glide plate, you must update the firmware of the 4000s. In my printed manual it is not mentioned.
Actually I´m not pretending to be a supa-profesional sax player
About vibrato: Your first sugesstion is actually a real vibrato, in fact, is one of the bests ways to get the vibrato thing in the traverse flute... I tried it in my flute player wanna-be year. Still is not easy for me, the mouthpiece bitting tech approach seems more natural FOR A SAX PLAYER (maybe a flutist would find it as his/her best option).
Using the thumb is something that I find useful for bending notes down, but I wouldn´t recomend it for the vibrato. You can only use it in the notes your right and is free, and even in these, the instruments balance becomes affected, something that won´t help your perfomance.
Two interesting posts
Phil999 wrote : I just need to set the CC of the glide plate to 21. Setting it to 23, I can control flutter. So I usually switch the CC number between 05, 21 and 23.
Good, but i suppose you can not switch from one setting two another while playing and what about the keyswitch ?
Even if some articulations can be reproducted very well with a wind controler some other, like half-valve portamento, are impossible to do.
It's why may be an EWI + a foot controler could be a terrific combination (once you succed to manage with all this bazaar :roll: )
Phil999 wrote : This is a reason to buy the 4000s instead of the USB version, because the USB version lacks the glide plate (as far as I know; I read it on the Akai webpage)
Yes it's true but the price is quite higher and as i do not like to much synthetic sounds i do not care of the internal sound generator... (and i suppose that it's far from a vl-70m + a patchman update)
Anyway, we will see, if my boss give me a good bonus this year... (i think he will pretext about the world financial crisis to give me peanuts
ive got both the yamaha wx5 and the ewi usb.
growl can be done on both. however it is slightly different.
The wx5 responds better to my breath when humming , saying 'rrrrrr' in de back of my throat.
the ewi is somewhat harder to do. The reason why you get a better response from your ewi 4000 internal sounds is because the internal sounds have a higher definition. midi only has 128 steps , the internal sounds are more sensitive to breath. so all midi based hardware and software will not react as good as the internal sounds.
from what i understand the ewi 4000s dirties up the sound when doing a growl.. the wx5 is more like a flutter-tongue kinda sound.
i dont own the trumpet or sax t. so i cant speak for that specificly, just midi in general.
These are really bad news! Still what you say sounds pretty logical, even if I don´t want to believe it
Still if it´s true I would love an oficial answer from somebody on sample modelling... just to take it out of my head... please?
So sad
Valouz:
I´m not very interested on the foot controller thing... I usually play live in front of people, and let´s face it, the ewi itself is quite an ugly thing to take with you to an scenario, we have to add the laptop, the midi and audio extra cables and channels, and them a foot controller? My group would probably argue that in the car a real trumpet player would be less space demanding that all that (not to say about the prize... but that´s quite more my problem
My objetive is to play live without worring about anything, just concentrated on the music itself, as I play sax. If such a point could be achieved, believe me no sax player would want to do without "the trumpet". It´s expensive but doubling on the trumpet by simply paying money, without any time inversion? My god! The equipment would pay itself, when you get that extra job as sax player doubling (even if it wasn´t the real thing) on the trumpet. Not to mention that sooner or later "the traverse flute" (and "the piccolo"), "the recorder", "the trombon", "the bari-sax" (you pay about 6000 euros for a serious new one), "the clarinet", "the oboe", "the duduk", "the shakuhachi flute", "the bansuri flute", "the irish flute", "the french horn", "the tuba", "the tin whistle", "the shehnai", "the bassoon", "the Xiao Flute", "the english horn", "the ophicleide", "the harmonica", "the bagpipe", "the..." will be on the market.
I had short affairs with some of these instruments, and allways end leaving them, just because they are serious ones, and demand and extra time to learn to play that I don´t have. If one day learning to play properly the ewi means you can play all of them (courtesy of sample modelling instruments)... well, It simply will be a MUST HAVE for any wind player, not only saxophonists.
Again sorry about the long writing...
Jorgitosax wrote
My group would probably argue that in the car a real trumpet player would be less space demanding that all that (not to say about the prize...
Not sure : 7 trumpets also take a lot of place and cost a lot of money
let me tell you that almost everybody started as a little sunday's player...
i think that the ewi is a great instrument for saxplayers.
The ewi (yamaha and akai) respond great to the breathcontrol.
its just that you should think of it as a complete new instument. Try to play some synthsounds aswell. My hardware Roland xv2020 responds way better than the included software by Garritan. So software instruments may differ in response.
Michael Brecker is the one that introduced me to the ewi, and now its my main instrument.
i just love it.
I agree that the trumpet/sax should sound as realistic as possible, so theres is always room for improvement.
I agree with you, the ewi is not a sax, is an instrument itself. That said, I still think that the growl humming/singing technique is something really helpful to have a more complex and sensitive playing. And if new software wind instruments are to come, I still think many of them would benefict from including the natural growl thing I´m asking about. The real sax, trumpet, flutes, clarinet & trombone are some of the ones I had fun with, and in all of them growl was something funny and a natural way to colour the sound. So if possible why not doing it as in natural instruments rather than with a foot switch or wheel?
I actually tried hardly to enjoy synthsounds, but I have to recognize I can´t :oops:
It needs about 10 seconds to change the CC number for the glide plate. On stage, during a song you probably want to keep the setting, and for the next song you can change.
And to jorgitosax: what exactly makes you sad? That MIDI has low resolution? I don't know, maybe I have lower expectations, but for me soft- and hardware (Sample Modeling and EWI) work just perfect.
I thought that it might be possible to growl with my voice in a natural way for a wind player, without using an extra wheel or plate for it. Still think it would be more natural for me, and probably for most of users once they tried it.
I´m glad about the fact you are happy with the thing as is now
But can WindController convert audio signal (your voice) in MIDI data (CC21) ?
Virtual instruments receive only MIDI data.
Best
Stefano
Jorgitosax already anwered that he does not know
well unfortunetly I did expend ALL of my money to buy a mac book pro, so I don´t have a serious sequencer, just garage band. It is a very simple program, actually it only records four diferent midi events, and none of them seems to be afeccted by growling in my ewi
By my side, i've also asked this to Bernie but i do not have answer yet.
I am very interested with the answer (like you i guess)
Can some EWI's owner reading this forum check this ?
Please
For now we must use what we've got. I think I'll buy an expression pedal, and use it as an additional controller for either CC5, CC21 or CC25. Hmm, no, I guess I'll buy two expression pedals. :P
The idea with the microphone is nevertheless to consider. We need a cheap tiny microphone (quality doesn't matter) to build inside the EWI, an amp with noise-gate and probably some filters (EQ), a software that translates the incoming audio amplitude in MIDI CC data in real-time (real-time might be a problem here), and then we could use our voice articulation, also some r-r-r-r-r to create some growl. Well, to be honest, this looks not simple, first I'll try the new pedals. But who knows, maybe some Akai or Yamaha or Steiner people are reading, and implement a mic in their next wind-controller?
I mean, this can all be added in post in a sequencer, but for me this is something I try to avoid. I think we should try to make soft- and hardware as intuitive as possible, so that only few post-work will be necessary. Also head- and position-tracking is one further option to live control software.
I'm a controller freak and actually I'm not very satisfied with interfaces in general. I'm quite happy with the EWI, the Drehbank, the graphic tablet, the SpacePilot, the Trautonium- and the Theremin-controller and what not, but always on the move to make it better, to make the man-machine interfaces more perfect, to enable the human to focus on ideas and creativity and to forget all the technical details. So I'm only relatively happy. It could be better, like the example with the voice interaction you mentioned. But I'm very excited about what comes (future Sample Modeling VSTi's, future input devices, 3D-monitors) and what already has proven reliable (CV, MIDI, HD-recording).
I´m not sure. When you play the sax the humming is not something that you can ear, neither is affecting the sound by acoustics. I think it affects to the air flow-pressure, modulating (¿?) it at a very fast tempo, and them the sound reaches the mouthpiece altered-modullated, and the sound produced by the reed is altered as well, growling.
Sorry I´m not an expert (nor an english speaker) but I think it can be compared to the little ball inside a simple whistle, if you take it out the sound is not the same, is it? The tipical trilling sound of the whistle get its nature from this ball cutting the sound at a very fast rythm. I think that humming or singing in a sax or a clarinet can be compared to this.
Why the same thing is happening on the akai 4000 ewi? Sorry I have no idea
Phil:
Your ideas sound very interesting, but I admitt I have no idea about acoustics, formants, modullation or nothing :oops: I also hope that interfaces become easier to use, and that somebody listen to your proposal. Still what I´m talking about is something you already can get from The akai ewi and its internal sounds...
I fear that the MIDI connection has not enough resolution fo this purpose, especially Frequency resolution.
Midi data Freq. Res. is around 100Hz, It should be at least 10 times faster... !
Perhaps in future...
Best
Stefano
For EWI USB users the only possibility to control growl would be to assign the second breath controller cc to cc#21. This can be easilydone using the ARIA software. Unfortunately you loose portamento control but this is the downside of the Akai USB (one midi controller missing). You could also use the second bite controller cc but this doesn´t make a lot of sense musically as it would always be linked to vibrato (which is produced by the first bite controller.
The other downside is, that using the breath control as cc#21 blowing with a higher velocity will instantly trigger cc#21 and thus produce growl. It would be nice if the SM developers could write a script to insert a (controllable via GUI) delay when using cc#21 with a wind controller. Therefore you could better control the growl when slightly increasing the airflow after having produced the note-on velocity.
What comes into my mind is that you could use #cc2 as well to control either growl or portamento as both breath controllers (which are software assignable) work in parallel anyway. This would make modifications by SM (are you listening Stefano
I know it sounds complicated but with scripting it would be possible even with the Akai USB though the EWI 4000 has the advantage of an additional assignable controller (glide plate)
Best regards
Raindog
I do not want to be the festival touble man (i do not know if this expression exists in english) but do not loose of sight the fact that today's technology can not yet return all the varieties of growl that we can produce with a real sax.
I will not teach you something that all of you know but if i have good memory (i do not own and touch a real sax since long time) if the pitch you sing is equal to the note played on your saxophone you will get one kind of growl. If your pitch is different it will sound really different and if your pitch is different but still a harmonic of the played note you will get something different again (am i right ?) and i am not talking about the other ways to produce growl. So i think that the problem is quiet hard to solve, no ?
Best regards
Raindog
How do you recognise Michael Brecker from far away and on a small radio ?
Because his overtones mixed with growl always use the same few notes and most of all he has his own timbral sound. So finaly, i will satisfy myself if SM team will offer us these few notes (never mind the infinit variety of growl)
I am a keyboard player and would like know how difficult it is to learn an instrument like the EWI or the WX-5/7?
its just how good do you wanna be on it..
if you wanna play 3 notes on it.. you will nail that in day 1 or 2.
I'm thinking about what is the best combination to play these wonderful instruments:
either a breath controller + keyboard playing
pros: i only need a breath controller, my keyboard playing is play
cons: lacking of playing realisitc lines/scales/arpeggio as
a sax player would do it,
or switch completely to a wind controller and learn how to play it
pros: playing technique is very close to real wind instruments, all in one solution (the breath controller is integrated into the wind instrument)
cons: i would have to learn how to play it. therefore there is a certain barrier in the beginning and maybe I'm losing interest (?), not sure.
With all the keyswitches available with The Trumpet you can achieve very impressive piece of music with a keyboard. With a wind controller some of the articulations are impossible to play without adding a foot controller. For example the half-valve sound portamento (am i right guys ?)
By knowing this, to buy a windcontroller is not an easy decision.
For me it is another history, I like really this musical instrument and during these 20 last years I bought a sax that I sold, I rented one and abandoned again.
Why?
Not because it is too difficult, but because with the sax (and other brass and reed instrument) it is very important to practise very regularly.
When i've started to play sax (long time ago) i had 3 x 8 hours schedule job (working sometime in the morning, after in noon and finally in night). Because of this hard life i was only practicing sax once time a week during several hours. The result, i needed one week to heal my aphthous lip
Even if now i have a "normal" job the lack of time make almost impossible to me to start again playing real sax.
So for people like me a windcontroller is marvellous.
What you have to really understand is that a windcontroller is not only a electronic controller but a new kind of instrument that you have to tame. Even a very good sax player like Michael Brecker spent several months to feel at his ease. So how much more for us poor keyboard player ?
Like the electric guitar is really another instrument compare to a classical guitar. The electric guitar offers so many possibilities that the classical does not (i like very much classical guitar) thanks to all the electronic effects.
At least for little amount of money you can really improve your sound
This is only my opinion.
I simply loaded the sax as it comes out of the box - no fiddling with anything - played, and hummed down the EWI. I got a really pronounced growl, which ought to be impossible. As has been said here, the voice really shouldn't trigger a MIDI message.
I haven't checked in Cubase to see what message was sent (if any). Nor did I do much exploring to see whether I could control the amount of growl. Now my girls are asleep I can't really carry on, but I'll try it out some more later in the week.
The EWI is fantastic. Previously I had a breath controller, and was really happy with how natural it felt to control level with my lungs - but with the EWI I can get great flutter tonguing, triple tonguing; so much more agile.
It is interesting to note that the new Akai EWI4000s is capable of responding to humming and growling impressively well when using its internal synth due to the fact that the internal connection between the breath sensor and the synth is 14 times faster than MIDI and it uses 32 bit resolution to control the filter! This is all the more impressive considering the EWI4000s is a fully digital instrument. In fact, in tests at Patchman Music, we have found that the breath sensor is actually more responsive to growling than the older TRUE ANALOG EWI models!
http://www.patchmanmusic.com/WindControllerFAQ.html