First impressions
I haven't set it up right yet but I think this software is going to drive me nuts. I keep running out of notes both ends of the spectrum and Kontakt doesn't allow the instruments range to be shifted/transposed.
Does the Kontakt you buy allow transposition?
Or does anyone know of software that can extend/shift the range?
Regards Pete.
Does the Kontakt you buy allow transposition?
Or does anyone know of software that can extend/shift the range?
Regards Pete.
Comments
Does the Kontakt you buy allow transposition?
Or does anyone know of software that can extend/shift the range?
Regards Pete.
You're running out of notes because that's the range of notes the instrument can make. And the farther it got out of range, the worse it would sound anyways. I know you want to try and create other types of sax instruments, but it's just not possible with this one, nor would it sound totally authentic anyways.
Kontakt doesn't allow you to do it either because this library is locked to protect the technology involved. Buying Kontakt won't get you around that. Also, if it's like The Trumpet, the keyswitches are right below the lowest note of the instrument and those are essential to playing this thing right. You would have to move all the keyswitches as well, which are pretty complex.
The focus here, just as with The Trumpet, is for realism. So that's really what you will get. There are many sax libraries out there that let you extend the ranges down using the full Kontakt, but they won't be as realistic.
Brent
Regards Pete.
And the farther it got out of range, the worse it would sound anyways. I know you want to try and create other types of sax instruments, but it's just not possible with this one, nor would it sound totally authentic anyways.
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The problem is I want an extended range, thats why I use a windsynth, which I think will be a majority view.
I would pay extra for an extra range or a way to extend the range. Lets face it the range could be shifted quite easily with the key switches shifting with the range. (were not talking rocket science here) That would allow for transposition either way without running out of notes. Lets face it a squeak would be better than utter silence. An extended range would require only running the extended range as a second instrument.
I have transposed the sax with software and there is no reason for it not to be more extensive. But regardless of the quality, for that option to be denied is a bit over the top.
If the limitation is so further saxes can be used with the same samples, because believe me they are good transposed, I don't mind as long as they don't mess with them to hide the fact, because I want a sax with a wind friendly range not two adaptions that don't blend together.
Anyway with a real sax, with technique you can extend the range unlike Mr T.
Anyway, I'm sure Mr T will be used, but with the limitations it will not be the top of my list. It's nice to know that when I've learnt a song I can just transpose it when required, without worrying whether I will run out of notes.
But thats just my opinion, based on my disappointment, if your happy I'm glad, but at least other potential purchasers are clear about this limitation now, whether it is important is up to them.
Regards Pete.
In real life, technique can only go so far as well. There is a LIMIT to what the instrument can do. No technique is going to change the range of the instrument(without sounding like utter trash).
If you move the keyswitches too far, you start making it a requirement that people have full sized keyboards. And many people do not. If you make it so that the user can set the range and everything moves with it, that's an insane amount of Kontakt scripting to be done.
They aren't denying the option of transposing. They are just making a realistic instrument. That's not over the top.
If you want a realistic Tenor Sax, you use Mr. Sax T. If you want another type of sax, buy a library with that sax in it or wait for Sample Modeling to make one. But pretending like it's some huge oversight to not include an unrealistic feature of an instrument that is supposed to be realistic, well that's a bit "over the top".
I'm not trying to be rude, I promise. And I am very aware of the technology for stretching, mapping samples, and even Kontakt scripting. I also know my instruments pretty well. But sometimes a product just needs to be what it was intended to be and not try to please everyone. There are other products out there if you want unrealistic instruments. But MOST high quality libraries have this exact same "limitation".
I hope you enjoy the sax regardless. I don't have it yet myself.
Brent
But it's not a limitation. That's the range of the actual instrument.
Brent
Maybe for some sax players!!!
It's a limitation, because there is no logical reason why it is imposed. Most samplers have a limit to what sounds good, but that is your choice.
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But pretending like it's some huge oversight to not include an unrealistic feature of an instrument that is supposed to be realistic, well that's a bit "over the top".
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Er, I asked, and got no answer. I forced the point with a second post and got an unclear answer to a specific question, (but was told it wouldn't sound good, but try myself) I sent two further posts that were unanswered.
I noted an earlier post that asked a similar question and an answer from a member that basically implied you could run higher notes with a second instrument transposed. I believe scripts were written for the user, but no denial about the proposition of transposition.
I'm not saying I wouldn't have bought the software, but I certainly would have bided my time and weighed up the pro's and cons and not excitedly bought a product that has left me feeling disturbed.
Read the posts, before stating I am over the top. And also note that posts were being answered by the creators inbetween my 3!!! (three!!!) unanswered posts.
Regards Pete.
There IS a logical reason why it's imposed: realism. They sampled the range of the original instrument. That's how MOST high end libraries work, not just this one. Go pay over $20,000 for the full Vienna Symphonic Library and you will have the same "restriction". That's how it is with realistic instruments. Even if SOME players can go higher or lower in the range, there is always still a restriction.
You can't really blame anyone for your disappointment though. You COULD have waited to buy it until you did get an answer.
I wish you luck in your search for the full range realistic sax though. I have a lot of libraries, and I can say that your search won't be very fruitful.
Off to bed. No hard feelings, I hope.
Brent
You were asking several times about the possibility of trasposing Mr. Sax T. Your questions were replied by Peter Siedlaczek, who politely suggested that you were going on a barren path. I believe Brent's comments represent a proper, wise reply. Still I'd like to definitely clarify this topic.
Mr. Sax T. exploits an entirely new technology to achieve unprecedented levels of realism and expressiveness. It is not a traditional sample-based library, nor a synthesizer, nor a toy. Whatever your experience might be concerning tweaking, transposing, or even caricaturing a library, it does not apply here.
Plainly stated, the technology behind Mr. Sax T. fortunately does not allow it.
Is this a limitation? We don't think so. Mr. Sax T. is a Virtual Tenor Saxophone, and it does its job, covering the typical range of this instrument, and sounding real.
This was our aim, and our customers seem to appreciate our philosophy.
Best,
Giorgio Tommasini
You can't really blame anyone for your disappointment though. You COULD have waited to buy it until you did get an answer.
Brent
Blame well, thats a matter of opinion. But like a lot of people I buy on trust, I've done it in the past and will probably do it in the future.
Clarity when selling can sometimes lose a sale.
Ambiguity can often gain a few sales, but a disgruntled customer that feels agrieved by such ambiguity can sometimes cost a lot more.
Regards Pete.
You were asking several times about the possibility of trasposing Mr. Sax T. Your questions were replied by Peter Siedlaczek, who politely suggested that you were going on a barren path.
Giorgio Tommasini
"I do not deny that for some purposes this might be perfectly suitable, but I cannot say whether transposed Mr. Sax T. would satisfy you; you have to try yourself... "
I think you will find in the one reply I was told to try myself. The above is a direct quote.
How I should try the impossible is an interesting question?
Regards Pete.
if you did, i also dont see any good use for futher extension of the range.
the sound will get to artificial.
Peter , what you could do is layer a sound similar to the sax sound underneath the Sax T.
this way when you reach higher notes the second layer will still put out notes for you, so you wont get muted notes when playing out of range.
other than that just wait for the soprano sax , i am sure it will be comming.
did you guys also sample some toptones.. the higher notes you can get using an alternate fingering?
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I actually transposed the demo's to hear the high tones, I find them more desirable than the tenor. Try it.
My problem is I clearly asked whether it could be transposed an octave and was clearly told to try it myself. That is Mr sax T, not a recording of it.
Had I been clearly informed of the limitations or however anyone wants to put it, I may still have purchased, but I wouldn't felt aggrieved.
Regards Pete.
It sounds like you want an Alto Sax (which hopefully will be in the future).
That being said..
I know I'll get quite a bit of use out of this virtual instrument. When I heard the demo I knew it was a round and full tenor sound. I am looking forward to using it.
Best,
Tony
It sounds like you want an Alto Sax (which hopefully will be in the future).
That being said..
Tony
I actually have a very good alto on my Genesys XP, that presently I use for tenor and soprano also.
However, dare I say!!! I'm after a kenny G sound, which, however he does it, is distinctly or at least sounds like a tenor sax transposed up an octave and uncannily the same as Mr T transposed (with a dash of "warm chamber").
More saxes may come out, but the sound I want is almost available, but short by half an octave. The chances of the same sound being in the new releases is negligible.
Clarity may not have stopped my purchase, but would have spared my dissappointment.
Regards Pete.
Blame well, thats a matter of opinion. But like a lot of people I buy on trust, I've done it in the past and will probably do it in the future.
Clarity when selling can sometimes lose a sale.
Ambiguity can often gain a few sales, but a disgruntled customer that feels agrieved by such ambiguity can sometimes cost a lot more.
Regards Pete.
You're pretending like they used questionable words to describe the product. Where is it unclear that you can't transpose the instrument? They didn't use ambiguous words in any way. And you were told that the instrument can't be transposed. "Try yourself" is all they could suggest, and to do that you pitch shift using your host or Melodyne or whatever.
Nothing was unclear. Just because the product page doesn't say "can't be transposed" doesn't mean that it is unclear. It doesn't say ANYTHING questionable. Feel free to point out the words that are so confusing. If they are there, then surely the company will want to know. But I don't think you'll have much luck.
Why can't you just enjoy the sax instead of acting like you'll never use it? Does it not sound good enough to use? Seems like Sample Modeling wants to bring ultimate realism to their instruments and to do a soprano sax right, they would do a soprano sax instrument. Otherwise, it wouldn't do justice to either instrument.
Another viewpoint here though. Since the extended range quality WILL be lower, what about customers who go to try it and come here saying "man, the upper and lower ranges on this thing SUCK! What went wrong?". Not worth the hassle.
Brent
Look I've listened to a demo from Bernie Sax, which clearly shows the capabilities of the software. (Which is not to say most will achieve his live abilities), but it does say the possibilities are there. Ie customers are not investing in a dead end.
As with any instrument it takes work (a lot of), so I am happy with my purchase.
It is just unfortunate that answers were not clearer.
Believe me I am not a newbie to law, (I could offer links to a case where I took both the UK and the netherlands, over a seven year period, through the Court of human rights, without legal support). (text me off line if you want the case-files).
The fact that I am happy with my purchase, and in no way want to harm the creators of a very nice software, a simple sorry would have been nice as to the ambiguity to the response to my questions.
Look, I asked clearly if the software could be transposed an octave up. The answer was try it yourself.
The more I am portrayed as the "villain of the peace", a complainer without cause, the harder my position becomes.
If you wish to portray me, or the creators wish do so, do so with logical and sustainable arguements and read directly the posts that led to this situation.
I don't like being pushed in a corner for stating facts, but the facts are clear.
This could disappear or rumble on, but I'm about to have another beer so I don't care.
Regards Pete.
You seem to be set on believing that they somehow deceived you. But they didn't. If you didn't understand what they meant, you should have waited to buy.
However, even you said that you would probably still have bought. So I don't see the big deal. I'm not portraying you as anything, and I HAVE read every post related to this. I think you misunderstood, maybe even partly because Peter didn't know that the terms he used would lead to confusion. But you've made it a point to say you were deceived, and that does paint a bad picture.
I just think you're making a bigger deal out of this than it had to be. The transposition wouldn't have sounded authentic, and Sample Modeling is about being authentic. If that wasn't clear, then maybe you could have waited. I know you were excited, and I AM sorry you're disappointed because you may be looking negatively in your own mind at a product that is great.
But just to sum it up, that's the authentic sample world. Transposing instruments beyond their range is not available very often in this level of product. I sincerely hope you find the instrument you want though. There is nothing more joyful than to get "that" sound and have a great song!
Brent
Even if "Mr Sax T" will allow transposition you will never get a soprano sound. I will be very curious to hear what you get doing this with your Genesys XP (that is a good machine)
As you surely know a sopronano saxophone have two peculiarities that makes his sound very recognizable from the other common saxs (Alto and Tenor).
1/ The first octave sounds like an alto sax (it depends of the mouth piece) but at least it sounds like a saxophone.
With the second octave you get a completly different sound (more like a clarinet sound even if it sound brighter)
All of this because the formant of the sound is very different between the first and second octave
2/ on very few notes between the first and the second octave (from Bb/B/C/Db if i remember well) there is a transition that is very impressive. The sound change absolutely from note to note. The formant of all those notes are really differents (it depends also from the player and the technic used)
This sounds like the throat open wider and wider but after you reached the second octave it sounds again like the throat is closed.
It's very hard to explain and i think that it's easier if you are a saxophone player to understand it very deeply.
Listen to Dave Liebman (for example the title "Oasys" on http://www.deezer.com at 5:25)
Some saxophone players like to play a lot on this area and i like this so much.
For all the other saxophone the formant of the sound changes very little and very smoothly from the lowest note to the highest (compare to soprano sax)
All those differences make the soprano so different and so loveable from the other saxs.
So i can tell you that it is impossible to get all those peculiarities by transposing an Alto or a Tenor Sax.
In case you will be disappointed by your purchase you can sell me Mr T Sax (if there is a way to transfer the licence, hello samplemodeling)
It was not "oasys" the title to listen (bad copy/paste) but for example "your lady" at 5:26-5:32 and most of all "Welcome (instrumental)" at 5:09 (you can hear 3 notes with 3 really differents sounds) and 6:10 !
Best