Trumpet, Horns, Trombone Staccato
How do you guys do this? When it comes to really short notes, I'm still not completely sure about the relation between expression (cc11) and velocity? What is the effect of having a higher expression but lower velocity or vice versa? Which is more realistic? Plus should you use an expression curve on short notes or keep it flat? When you start processing everything there are so many variables to consider!
I know the sound of the room plays a huge role when it comes to short notes, but I still have to experiment every time I want to write staccato notes. How do you guys deal with this?
I know the sound of the room plays a huge role when it comes to short notes, but I still have to experiment every time I want to write staccato notes. How do you guys deal with this?
Comments
I would also be curious how the SM team envisions people using staccato (and staccatissimo), assuming of course the devs have time to actually do their own music. Do you usually set CC11 high and just use velocity to control the power of staccato, or vice versa..? Or maybe both CC11 and velocity should always be used together at about the same level?
since the Forum is mainly reserved for the users and for the knowledge exchange between them, we actually did not know what "guys" you meant. Questions to us are expected to be sent to our support using the Contact page. That´s how we thought it could work :-)
Since CC25 (Velocity to Dynamics, if set to 127) drives CC11 from the velocity value to the incoming CC11 value (within about 400 ms), it´s the velocity what will mainly dictate the dynamics of the staccato. But you can also set CC25 to 0 - in this case the dynamics will be solely dictated by the incoming CC11, so you can play low CC11 (pp) with high velocity (After all, a staccatissimo in pp could be also required). But indeed, playing higher velocities will enhance the initial attack a bit. To obtain a possibly short note, I would set the Attack and Release Time (CC26 + 27) to the minimum.
I am sure the users doing their own music in their daily practice can add something more here.
Best regards
Peter
So am I correct in thinking this: When CC25 is at the max, then the only function of velocity is to modify the CC11 data during the attack phase (~first 400ms), and the length of this attack phase is controlled by CC26? So then, when CC25 is set to 0, then velocity will have no effect on anything?
Yes, but not only... Velocity has more than one function. Let me summarize:
- velocity dictates the very initial dynamics level on note-on, when CC25 is set to 127 (as you correctly wrote). On average velocity (~80) no additional ramp will be created - i.e. the note is played with its "normal" attack. For higher or lower velocity one obtains a descending or ascending ramp, connecting the dynamics curve within about 400 ms to the incoming value of the CC11 (or CC2 if in Wind- or Breath Controller mode). And - yes - the duration of that ramp can be influenced by CC26
- If CC25 = 0, however, velocity still have its other functions:
1. it shapes the attack envelope slightly steeper or softer, if playing at the highest or the lowest velocities;
2. It always controls the transition time of the legato-played notes (portamento time)
And - mixed settings using CC25 (if CC25 is between 0 and 127) are of course also possible.
By the way: please note that French Horns, due to the nature of the instrument, has CC25 permanently set to 127 (hence CC25 is not available on the GUI)
That´s all... :-)
Regards
Peter
I have a question : when using the windcontroller mode, does the velocity still has the same impact on the attack ? Or is it completely transparent in this case, and in this case only ?
I really think these informations are essentials to have a deep understanding of your instruments, but your manual currently lacks a deep explanation of some of these parameters (for both kontakt and swam based instruments ). When reading your manual, i sometime end up not being sure what to do, because i usually understand only half of the process.
That's not a huge problem, though, because your instruments are so straightforward, but when you want to tweak everything to have a perfectly set up instrument, it's kinda tricky.
A little one.
If you load The Trombone, switching to Wind Controller mode sets CC25 (see previous post) to 0. The Trumpet uses CC25 set to 0 anyway. So whatever velocity you send from your controller, no "ramp" will be created (see previous post). However, the velocity will still have some influence on the initial steepness of the attack: high velocity will produce a bit harder/steeper attack, low velocity - a bit softer attack (you can easily test the impact of the velocity clicking on various parts of a key on the virtual Kontakt keyboard; this way you can easily create very high and very low, fully controllable velocities for test purposes).
Tha fact that the velocity still have some (relatively subtle) influence on the initial attack is important since, while playing a wind controller, one can either send a constant, medium velocity or velocity coupled to the dynamics (CC2), which in the latter case may vary within a wide range.
Please note that the portamento time (for legato), normally also controlled by velocity, switches to CC5 in Wind Controller mode (see instrument menu "Portamento Time").
In the Manuals of the future instrument upgrades we will try to explain these things better :-)
Peter
So, in a nutshell, each instrument has its own way of doing things
The horn has always its cc25 set up to 127, the trumpet, to 0, and the tombone has no fixed value.
I didn't catch these subtleties from the manual (expect for the horn). Is it because the trombone and the trumpet work differently, or because you added this cc25 ramp after the trumpet ?
I still think your manual are good though. It's just that they lack a real "in-depth" part, where you no longer explain to people that might not understand correctly midi standards. Maybe a sticky post on the forum, explaining all these subtilties per instrument (Kontkat AND Swam) would do the trick.
please note that we are talking about default settings, not functionality. Although all three instruments have been developed in a very different time, they all have the same "ramp" feature (which is fixed in French horns due to the nature of the instrument). In both The Trumpet and Trombone you can set them as you like. Storing the instrument will permanently keep your favorite settings anyway.
Peter