New Sample Modeling Trumpet 3 User
Hello to all, I just purchased Trumpet 3 a few nights ago, my first SM instrument, and it just sounds great, best I've heard.
I AM having some tech problems though. I may have to record an example of what I'm experiencing and post a link so you can hear, if I can't explain it well enough.
So, I record a passage in Pro Tools, and play it back, and it's fine. Then another passage, and so on. But it seems the next time I go to playback, notes are just wildly playing, say, two notes back and forth. Sending an ALL NOTES OFF message doesn't help, but for some reason record enabling the track and then hitting the offending notes (the notes are always in the phrase I recorded) ....stops the offending sounds.
Obviously it's so hard to get anything done like this. I've been bouncing a phrase to audio when it DOES play back properly, just so I can proceed.
I have remapped my sustain pedal to be controller 11.
I'm just wondering what I could be doing wrong here to produce these results?
I'm on Mac Sierra, with the latest version of PT.
Thanks so much
Tom
I AM having some tech problems though. I may have to record an example of what I'm experiencing and post a link so you can hear, if I can't explain it well enough.
So, I record a passage in Pro Tools, and play it back, and it's fine. Then another passage, and so on. But it seems the next time I go to playback, notes are just wildly playing, say, two notes back and forth. Sending an ALL NOTES OFF message doesn't help, but for some reason record enabling the track and then hitting the offending notes (the notes are always in the phrase I recorded) ....stops the offending sounds.
Obviously it's so hard to get anything done like this. I've been bouncing a phrase to audio when it DOES play back properly, just so I can proceed.
I have remapped my sustain pedal to be controller 11.
I'm just wondering what I could be doing wrong here to produce these results?
I'm on Mac Sierra, with the latest version of PT.
Thanks so much
Tom
Comments
As The Trumpet is a Sample library and the playback technology is provided by Native Instrument's Kontakt engine this seems to be a problem between Computer, DAW and Kontakt, and the Library itself can't help.
Do you use the most recent version of Kontakt ?
Did you try another DAW (e.g. Reaper can easily be tested fully featured without any cost or complicated installation).
-Michael
I don't use ProTools, but on Cubase when I had similar weirdness in the past with other instruments, I used a MIDI monitor utility on the track to see the MIDI commands which helps with seeing a mismatch between note on and note off.
As for ALL NOTES OFF not clearing it, that I can't explain. Do you use the "!" (all notes off) button within Kontakt itself or something in ProTools or your controller?
Can you give more details about what controller you are using for note on/off? Is it a keyboard or wind controller?
What's interesting, is that I loaded up several other patches from other libraries in Kontakt, and recorded a long note.
Then sent the PT "ALL NOTES OFF" command. Some responded immediately cutting off, and some continued to sound. I guess I need to open Logic and see if I have the problem. I thought being a new user I might have some setting wrong, (I don't understand that option that says "Use Sustain Pedal as controller AND sustain" or however that was worded. It is checked though, as I read that it should be.
Not only does it go crazy playing two notes, say, out of the phrase over and over like a stuck record, but in the faint distance you can also clearly hear a note sustaining that shouldn't be. Definitely sounds like note off stuff.
I'm using a Roland A-49. Current version of Kontakt and PT.
Thanks for your input, much appreciated. I should get that midi utility....
I opened the current version of Logic, and play several phrases, without issue.
I then held out a note as long as it could, and had Logic send an "ALL NOTES OFF" message, and unlike in Pro Tools, the trumpet stopped immediately!
I may have to sequence parts in Logic it seems.
One thing I am having trouble with though, is I find the sustain pedal (Yamaha) does not give me enough of a range for expression. It's like either too soft, or way too loud, too quickly. It's like I need a pedal with a "longer throw" or something. May have to investigate wind controllers. Any suggestions?
The sustain/sustenuto functionality in Kontakt might (or might not) keep the playing notes running even after an "all notes off" command.
OTOH the the "Panic" button of a DAW (or whatever) might (or might not) send "Sustain off" together with "all notes off".
OTOH, I don't suppose it's a good idea to use a traditional "Sustain" functionality with a Trumpet (or any "solo voice") sound. With live playing, it would be a lot more effective to use this controller for other effects (e.g. Growl), and with midi edited tracks to leave it off all the time. (For live playing the "Cello" with a Breath controller, I did a plugin that keeps the "expression" CC at minimum at the value it had when the sustain pedal was pressed.)
tomhartman wrote: I have remapped my sustain pedal to be controller 11. I'm just wondering what I could be doing wrong here to produce these results? Rather obviously this did not work decently (leaving some "sustain" functionality in place).
If you use the sustain pedal as an expression controller (which is very unusual and I doubt any hardware "Sustain Pedal" controller will be really suitable for) you need to make sure that it sends a different controller number than "Sustain" or to switch off the traditional sustain functionality in Kontakt (if this is possible). In fact, traditionally the "Sustain" is just an on/off control. "Half pedaling" is an additional functionality added for better "piano" feeling, but not decently usable for other stuff than it had been intended for.
Especially with a wind instrument (and more doubtfully with a solo string instrument) a Breath controller (such as a TEC BBC) is highly recommended as a "human interface" for "expression".
OTOH it looks like a nice idea to use a Pedal with a drawing back spring for Expression, rather than a usual "volume" type Foot controller. I am not aware of such a "gas-pedal" like controller but it might be available somewhere or it might be possible to add mechanically a spring to a decently "light" standard Volume pedal.
-Michael
However, I almost never use the keyboard mode for any of the sample modeling brass. Some people are good at it, but I can't get anywhere close to the expression and joy I get from using my wind controller instead. I personally use the Akai EWI-USB. It took me a while to get used to it, but I can't live without it now. Other people also have good luck with breath controllers which have the similar control of dynamics via breath, but you can use the keyboard for note selection in that case. I would like to try that someday, but for now I use the EWI.
To give you an idea, I recorded a very short trumpet line using my EWI and then tried to recreate the same line in keyboard mode using only my on/off sustain pedal for CC11 then right after it the same line using the mod wheel and keyboard. WARNING: because it blasts at full dynamics you may want to lower your speaker volume if you listen to it. I'm sure you'll see the difference and why I prefer wind controller.
Assigning a good continuous MIDI controller (generates all values from 0, 1, 2, ... 127) to map to the dynamics should solve the odd behavior of being too loud too quickly. But I don't see yet how it could be causing the other problem of bouncing between two notes sometimes in ProTools. If you could share an audio clip we might be able to help further as it is a very strange thing you are describing.
Good luck,
-John
I don't know if I could figure out how to use one not being a trumpet player, but yes the sustain pedal is terrible. Gotta fine a solution. My Roland a49 does have a C1 and C2 knob which defaults to something dumb I can't remember, and the manual is vague on to reassign them, to something like C11.
So I need to either get a cheap wind controller (any suggestions?) and learn to use it, or buy some tiny little midi controller with maybe faders on it I could use.
Thanks for all the help, really want get this working, it sounds fantastic!
As for cheap wind controllers, I've not looked recently, but the EWI-USB was the low end of the Akai line the last I checked (few years ago). If you are unsure about the format, I think a breath controller + keyboard may be a better route. I don't have any guidance on those, but hopefully other forum members can recommend.
-John
Wind Controllers are neither cheap nor easily to manage. I do have an old Yamaha WX7 but (being a keyboarder) gave up trying to learn the fingering. I am very happy with the TEC BBC, which is not exactly cheap, but a lot less expensive than any wind controller.
Take a look at the demo Videos on the SampleModeling Website. There are excellent examples using the Mod Wheel with SM instruments. I myself don't seem to be able to decently learn to do this, but obviously it is possible.
-Michael
I have both the Akai EWI4000s Wind Controller and the TEControl Breath and Bite Controller 2. I use the TEC BBC2 with an Akai MPK88 keyboard controller. I also have a friend who uses a TEC BBC 2 with a MIDI Guitar (Fishman TriplePlay) plus another friend who uses the Akai EWI USB Wind Controller. They all work excellently with every Samplemodeling instrument.
For me, some passages are easier to play on a wind instrument, others are easier with a keyboard. With the SM Trumpet my first choice is generally the EWI, but the BBC2/Keyboard is a close second.
If you don't know or don't want to learn any wind instrument fingerings, and/or you prefer using a keyboard, I would recommend getting the TEC BBC2 and an Expression Pedal to add to your Roland A-49/Sustain Pedal setup. This would give you access to 8 Full-Range CCs (2 of which are controlled by nodding and tilting your head!) plus 3 more On/Off CCs.
If you can afford it, the BBC2/Expression Pedal upgrade would give you excellent control over any MIDI instrument for under $300. Here's just one suggested configuration for using this setup with the SM Trumpet 3.
Variable CCs:
1. BBC2 Breath - Expression (CC2) with the Trumpet 3's "Use Breathcontroller" option enabled
2. BBC2 Bite - Flutter Intensity (CC23)
3. BBC2 Nod - Growl Intensity (CC21)
4. BBC2 Tilt - Vibrato Rate (CC19)
5. A-49's Mod Wheel - Vibrato Intensity (CC1)
6. New Expression Pedal - Select Mute type based on pedal position (CC100)
7. A-49's C1 Knob - Realtime Timbral Shaping (1, 2 or all 3 Harmonic Group Gains set to CC91)
8. A-49's C2 Knob - Realtime Timbral Shaping Harmonic Frequency (Formant) Shift (CC90)
On/Off CCs:
1. A-49's Sustain Pedal - Used for setting Microtunings (CC64) and for Overblow on SM Woodwind Instruments
2. A-49's S1 Button in Latch Mode - Toggle Pitch Fluctuation Slight/Strong (CC32)
3. A-49's S2 Button in Latch Mode - Reserve for other Toggled On/Off Commands
With a setup like this you can get very realistic results from any Samplemodeling product, or expressive control of many other MIDI/Virtual Instruments.
Here are some links you might find useful:
TEControl Breath and Bite Controller 2 - http://www.tecontrol.se/products/usb-midi-breath-bite-controller-2
Roland Expression Pedal - http://a.co/2F3Hl3E
Good site to research EWIs - http://www.patchmanmusic.com/index.html
Fishman TriplePlay MIDI Guitar Controller - https://www.fishman.com/products/series/tripleplay/
Cheers,
Kenn
I'd like to add that - if the keyboards does send channel aftertouch - using aftertouch for vibrato intensity to me gives a very natural playing feeling (using the Flute and the Cello). Besides the obvious functionality, playing harder in a certain way rather naturally imposes a random tone bending at the beginning of a note, which I feel is really nice.
-Michael
According to the manual, the Roland A-49 supports channel aftertouch via its built-in D-BEAM controller, but as far as I can tell the keys themselves don't transmit aftertouch. It would probably be worthwhile for Tom to compare the Mod Wheel versus the D-BEAM to see which he prefers for controlling Vibrato Intensity.
If the D-BEAM works well, he could free up the Mod Wheel to be assigned to another CC. I'd probably suggest either Random Detune (CC28) or Pitch Fluctuation (CC32) for added performance realism.
Cheers,
Kenn