The Trombone attack question

dickbarbourdickbarbour
edited November 2011 in Windcontrollers
While playing a series of eighth and sixteenth notes with some tongued and some slurred, I frequently get no output of a note from The Trombone. I'm using a WX5 and don't have this problem with The Trumpet or Mr. Sax T while playing the same passage. I tried both of my WX5's and get the same result. I suppose I should collect some MIDI info on this but thought I would first see if anyone has an idea of what's going on. I would normally think it was a MIDI controller or CPU capacity problem, but not in this case where the other instruments work fine. Could this possibly be related to one or more settings for portamento or attack dynamics? I notice that the initial settings for some of the CCs are very different for The Trumpet and The Trombone, for example CC5 and CC25. I admit I don't have a good understanding of how most of these work, even after reading the manual, and so am not eager to play with them too much on my own. For The Trumpet and Mr. Sax T it has been pretty much a case of their working great right out of the box. Thanks for any advice.

Dick

Comments

  • dickbarbourdickbarbour
    edited 9:52PM
    Well, so far 61 views and no replies. Was this a dumb question? Mabye I cut off discussion by mentioning the attack parameters which I thought might be a way to fix the problem if properly adjusted. In any case, the fact remains that I get missing notes on faster passages with The Trombone but not with Mr. Sax T or The Trumpet, whatever the reason. If no one else has experienced this then I understand it would be hard to make any suggestions. I guess I'll need to dig a little deeper on my own. However, in spite of my engineering background I'm retired now and am a lot more interested in playing music than I am in delving into virtual instrument technology!

    Dick
  • brialtousbrialtous
    edited 9:52PM
    Hi

    I'm having the same problem....no attack when I use the Trombone with my WX5.

    If you do solve the problem please let me know.

    Thanks

    Brian



    My email brialtous@aol.com
  • dickbarbourdickbarbour
    edited 9:52PM
    That's interesting, Brian. I haven't made any progress since I've been too busy with other things (and/or lazy) to work on it. Maybe we're the only ones who play The Trombone on the WX5?

    Dick
  • brialtousbrialtous
    edited 9:52PM
    Hi Again Dick......thanks for your reply.

    I would be interested to hear what you actually use your WX5 for.

    I multitrack with Sonar 8 producer to make up a big band. I have and play all the real saxes. Alto Tenor Bari and use the WX5 and trumpet/Trombone Kontakt for the brass parts.

    Feel free to email me at Brialtous@aol.com



    Brian
  • brialtousbrialtous
    edited 9:52PM
    Dick

    Try this

    When you insert soft syth in Sonar...... instead of choosing Kontakt 4 choose "kontakt 4 16out"

    I tried it and it gave me more attack with the trombone.

    let me know if it helps.



    Brian
  • robosaxrobosax
    edited 9:52PM
    hi,



    I'm getting random note dropouts, too. It's sometimes every other note - mostly on attacks, but it also happens when slurring.



    I playing it with a Synthophone on a MacBookPro with MainStage/Kontakt5 and MOTU mk3 interface.



    I've tried using Kontakt with different outputs, tried Windcontroller and Breath Controller modes, increased and decreased the buffer. Nothing seems help. All my other softsynths work fine and The Trombone is the only one glitching.



    Any ideas?



    TIA,

    robosax
  • brialtousbrialtous
    edited 9:52PM
    Hi.....I am also still having the trombone attack problem.

    I try to get round it by editing the track, but it is a poor and not satifactory way of doing it.

    After all these questions asked about it, isn't it about time Sample Modeling came up with an answer??!!!!
  • Giorgio TommasiniGiorgio Tommasini
    edited 9:52PM
    Our apologies, guys, for this tardy reply.



    This problem has been reported by a few windcontroller players, using either the EWI or the WX5. It affects The Trombone only, and does not seem to occur with keyboards. Analyses of midi data showed that very short "ghost" notes are responsible for this malfunction. These ghost notes are a byproduct of windcontrollers during fast transitions, and, according to expert WC users, can hardly be avoided.



    A modified script was therefore developed, in order to shield these notes. Preliminary experiments showed this script to be effective. If you Dick, Brian, Robosax, wish to betatest this modified nki, please let us know. As soon as NI will provide us the encoded prototype, we can make it available to you, and verify whether the problem is indeed definitely solved.



    Thanks for your patience,



    Giorgio & Peter
  • brialtousbrialtous
    edited 9:52PM
    Giorgio.....yes I would be pleased to try the modification as long as there is no charge involved.
  • Mick EmeryMick Emery
    edited 9:52PM
    I have drop outs also. I would be interested in "the fix".



    Thanks,

    Mick
  • dickbarbourdickbarbour
    edited 9:52PM
    Giorgio,

    Yes I would be willing to beta test the fix. I'm still curious, however, as to why these "ghost notes" would affect only the Trombone and not the other instruments?

    Dick
  • robosaxrobosax
    edited 9:52PM
    hi Giorgio,



    Yes please, I'm interested in betatesting the new script.



    thank you !



    robosax
  • webmasterwebmaster
    edited 9:52PM
    ok, as soon as NI provides us the encoded prototype, you'll get it :-)



    Giorgio
  • Peter SiedlaczekPeter Siedlaczek
    edited 9:52PM
    Dear brialtous, dickbarbour, Mick and robosax,



    we received the encoded Trombone nki from Native Instruments and sent it to you via e-mail. I hope your e-mail addresses we have are still valid. In case of any problems, please send us a message using our Contact page.

    If the tests are positive, we will make this version available to all our customers as an update via the Service Center.



    Thank you very much!



    Peter & Giorgio.
  • brialtousbrialtous
    edited 9:52PM
    Hi Peter....I loaded the NKI into the trombone folder then into Kontakt. The "attack" seems much better now although still not perfect.

    Dick, Mick and Robosax, What are your comments?



    Brian
  • dickbarbourdickbarbour
    edited 9:52PM
    Brian,

    I also tried it. The dropout problem is apparently fixed, at least in the same passages I had problems with before. However, for some reason I'm hearing crackles in my sound when using it with 12 total VSTs loaded. I don't have this problem with the original Trombone version in the same environment. I can only guess that the fix is using significantly more CPU.

    Dick
  • Peter SiedlaczekPeter Siedlaczek
    edited 9:52PM
    Hi,



    I´m glad the dropout problem on a wind controller is solved. We are investigating now the crackling problem of this test version (which is new) - please give us a few days.

    Thank you for your feedback.



    Peter
  • robosaxrobosax
    edited 9:52PM
    hi Peter!



    I've been testing the beta and the drop-outs seem solved. yay!



    However, there are some new things. It starts out OK, then after about a minute, I start to hear a crackling. The crackling starts out random, then after another minute becomes more consistant and only happens on the start of the notes. When it's on the start of the note, it sounds more like a click.



    It does go back to normal when I re-load the patch, but starts to crackle again after a minute.



    I noticed it starts to happen sooner when I slur. Just a guess... could it be something with the legato processing?



    I hope I described it well enough. I can always do a quick recording if you need.



    thanks,



    robosax
  • Peter SiedlaczekPeter Siedlaczek
    edited 9:52PM
    robosax,



    thank you for your feedback. Yes, other testers also reported that the problem is solved. Sorry about the crackling - yes, we noticed it right at the beginning and fixed it immediately. There was simply a debugging script running in the background, causing much more CPU load. The fixed version is waiting at Native Instruments for encoding.

    But... I have probably a nice workaround for you: please increase the number of voices of the Trombone (of the "official", released version) from 32 to 36. This setting is available on the instrument GUI. Please let us know if it fixes the dropout problem as well (we got several confirmations that it does.)



    Thank you.



    Peter
  • brialtousbrialtous
    edited 9:52PM
    I've been "playing around" with the Trombone for the last hour. No problems now at all. No crackling at all, no ghost notes. Staccato is great. I am perfectly happy with it now.

    Dick, Robosax, Mick....How are you guys finding it now?



    Thanks for your help Peter.



    Brian
  • robosaxrobosax
    edited 9:52PM
    I'm going to be really late for work, but I just had to try it.



    It works ! woo-hoo !!!imagedance.gif



    I just tested it for about a 1/2 hour and it responds and sounds perfectly. :D



    Thank you Peter & Giorgio !



    robosax
  • dickbarbourdickbarbour
    edited 9:52PM
    I just tried the latest v1.04 and it seems to work fine. I appreciate the response to this issue.

    Dick
  • Peter SiedlaczekPeter Siedlaczek
    edited 9:52PM
    dickbarbour, robosax, brialtous...



    Thank you for detecting this issue and for your cooperation. We will implement the fix into the other trombones (bass, tenor 2 etc.) and release the update as soon as NI encodes them.

    Enjoy the instrument :-)



    Peter & Giorgio
  • brialtousbrialtous
    edited 9:52PM
    Hi

    I don't know why, but I am having the same attack problem again. (or lack of it) Both Trombone and Trombone 2. :(

    Double checked all my settings and all seem ok.

    Anyone else having a similar problem again?

    Giorgio and Peter,Any suggestions?
  • Peter SiedlaczekPeter Siedlaczek
    edited 9:52PM
    brialtous,



    Trombone 2 cannot work properly, since it is the previous version. Only the version 1.04 which we sent you recently for test purposes should work. If you say "both Trombone and..." do you mean Trombone version 1.04?



    Peter
  • brialtousbrialtous
    edited 9:52PM
    Ok.....So we have had problems with the trombone. I have been sooo "picky' with it. Only because I want it just right.

    I realise now tha the problem was ME. No patience in getting it right.

    I have now solved all my problems and the trombone is just perfect.

    No more comments from me on this subject. Other than to thank Peter and Giorgio for all their help.

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