Newbie - EWI Question
Hello everybody,
this is my first post in the forum.
I´m a sax player, and purchased the Akai EWI USB plus The Trumpet a couple of weeks ago. I must admit I´m absolutely stunned! Out of the box it was amazingly fun and intuitive to play. My trumpet player friends turn green with envy when I bolt out a high G without having spent 5 years to build up my chops
I have a couple of questions for the experienced EWI players:
-would you be willing to share some of your EWI settings and Trumpet Kontakt settings? I have to admit I get lost when it comes to assigning midi controllers (I´ve changed the velocity setting to dynamic, which has helped the expressiveness a lot). Perhaps you have discovered some ideal set-ups.
- Is there a way to get a more natural vibrato (without using keyswitches)? I´m quite happy with the slight vibrato you use at the end of a long straight note to end it in a "horn-player" fashion, but using a stronger vibrato (e.g. playing a ballad with a flügelhorn) doesn´t quite work yet, the note starts to sound artificial.
-Finally: is there any way to slur up into a note? In order to sound natural, I feel the urge to hit a note a a lower pich and bend up to the correct pitch, as I would do it on a Sax. Any ideas on how to accomplish this?
Any input would be greatly appreciated. I very much want to learn more about the fabulous Trumpet.
Best regards
boogieman.
this is my first post in the forum.
I´m a sax player, and purchased the Akai EWI USB plus The Trumpet a couple of weeks ago. I must admit I´m absolutely stunned! Out of the box it was amazingly fun and intuitive to play. My trumpet player friends turn green with envy when I bolt out a high G without having spent 5 years to build up my chops
I have a couple of questions for the experienced EWI players:
-would you be willing to share some of your EWI settings and Trumpet Kontakt settings? I have to admit I get lost when it comes to assigning midi controllers (I´ve changed the velocity setting to dynamic, which has helped the expressiveness a lot). Perhaps you have discovered some ideal set-ups.
- Is there a way to get a more natural vibrato (without using keyswitches)? I´m quite happy with the slight vibrato you use at the end of a long straight note to end it in a "horn-player" fashion, but using a stronger vibrato (e.g. playing a ballad with a flügelhorn) doesn´t quite work yet, the note starts to sound artificial.
-Finally: is there any way to slur up into a note? In order to sound natural, I feel the urge to hit a note a a lower pich and bend up to the correct pitch, as I would do it on a Sax. Any ideas on how to accomplish this?
Any input would be greatly appreciated. I very much want to learn more about the fabulous Trumpet.
Best regards
boogieman.
Comments
Vibrato:
1. dynamic air flow
2. biting the mouthpiece
3. pressing the right thumb to the pitch bend plate and shake slightly.
To slur up a note, if I understand you correctly, can be achieved with the pitch bend plate of the right thumb. You play the note below and touch the upper bend plate increasingly. By default, the bend range is two halftones which I find good for all situations. Longer bends are possible with CC5 that you could control with a pedal.
I hope I could answer your questions. I have the trumpet and the EWI since April 2008, and they are a perfect couple. Don't hesitate to ask more questions, the one or other thing is probably already mentioned in the forum, as there are an increasing number of EWI players. And many that use other windcontrollers.
As you say, The Trumpet is a fabulous instrument. I couldn't agree more.
thanks for your quick reply.
My vibrato issue is actually as follows: I get a nice vibrato with the biting, but only if it´s a very slight vibrato without too much pitch change in either direction. The air-flow technique feels strange to me (too much of a flute-feeling), and the pitch bend plate I can use for a more dramatic shake in the very high register. But with none of the three techniques I get a natural sounding full vibrato on a long note (I´m thinking Freddie Hubbard playing a ballad on the Flügelhorn). My impression is that the greater the pitch fluctuation when biting, there more articifial it sounds.
In terms of the slurring: there are many articulations the trumpet does perfectly (very natural sounding attacks, the portamento...it´s like you can hear the valves working there!), but the slurring does not sound right to my ears if I use the pitch bend plate...it´d be awesome if this could actually be achieved by biting down as you hit the note and then quickly releasing the bite (similar to how you would produce that kind of slur on a saxophone)...
Also, the pitch bend plate I don't use with the trumpet for bends, I'd rather use portamento. The pitch bend plate is very good on old reed instruments and bagpipes. The very slow pitch bend, over two half-tones, at the end of a gipsy song intro, can very well emulated with the EWI.
So there are certain limitation that can only be avoided with extreme virtuosity or with post-production. I think the slur effect with the mouthpiece must be trained well! There are always new possibilities and tricks to discover.
Pat
Controlling the software vibrato with a wind controller, however, can be tricky. This is because the wind controller's vibrato mechanisms are physically implemented as thumb-operated tabs/sensors or bite plates that send pitchbend messages which have no correlation to the rate/intensity pair used to control the software vibrato.
A way around this is to use intermediary software that intercepts and analyzes the pitchbend messages, then infers a waveform from which rate and intensity can be approximately derived. This is the approach I use (using custom software) and it creates a very effective hand vibrato. The intermediary software also allows the use of bite for a controlled lip vibrato (bite triggers a Dynamic Pitch controller message and temporarily control dynamics). Along these lines, one could use pitchbend to control dynamics for this purpose although I've never tried it.
Regarding scooping up to a note, it is unfortunate that there is no way to have the pitchbend use the 1/2-valve sound, as this is how I tend to do it as a jazz trumpeter. Perhaps, we should suggest it to the good doctor for the next update.
- David
Regarding scooping up to a note, it is unfortunate that there is no way to have the pitchbend use the 1/2-valve sound, as this is how I tend to do it as a jazz trumpeter.
- David
Can you describe a bit what a 1/2-valve sound exactly is in a trumpet? What does scoop up mean?
Interesting what you say about this intermediary software for vibrato control. I haven't used the Trumpet's own LFO vibrato yet, but plan to try when I have my expression pedals.
The 1/2-valve sound is achieved by depressing the trumpet's valves only partially and yields a strange muted, stifled sound. With the valves in this position, the trumpet player can smoothly slide up and down the range of the instrument using lip and air velocity alone (with little or no further valve movement). It is used expressively in jazz but is also used subtly in all forms of playing to achieve a smoother transition between notes.
The Trumpet software uses a 1/2-valve sound for much of its implementation of portamento.
Phil999 wrote: What does scoop up mean?
By scoop up I mean playing a D with the pitchbend wheel held down at zero (so it sounds like a C) and slowly moving the wheel back up (scooping up) until the note sounds like a D.
Phil999 wrote: Interesting what you say about this intermediary software for vibrato control.
Being a professional musician, computer programmer and circus acrobat, I've been able to devise and use additional algorithms in front of the libraries I use. Some of these algorithms are used to aid in the leveraging of many features using a wind controller that may otherwise have only been practical with keyboards or post-editing. As more and more library developers gear their products for wind controllers (like Sample Modeling!), this becomes less and less necessary. I was kidding about being a circus acrobat.
Phil999 wrote: I haven't used the Trumpet's own LFO vibrato yet, but plan to try when I have my expression pedals.
The simulated vibrato is quite pretty and I highly recommend using it as the main vibrato. Even with a static rate and intensity, a listener can feel very subtle variations in the vibrato. This, I assume, was purposefully programmed by the developers to simulate the slight irregularities that occur even when a skilled player is trying to perform a steady vibrato.
- David
Even if not a circus acrobat, you are certainly a professional musician, and a smart guy.
Giorgio
When I first played the Trumpet, I was impressed how "forgiving" it is if the player is not a professional musician. Obviously those 1/2-valve transitions or some other advanced programming make this possible.
I like your approach to add new features to a wind controller. I would like to know more about your hardware-, software- and MIDI setup, if you feel like telling here. But it's fine if you don't feel like, it is just out of interest. I'm very happy with my setup.
Thank you for the hint with the vibrato. I tried it for the first time, and it is very good as you said. It is not a simple LFO, the rate starts slow and accelerates later. So it is what we used to call a VCLFO. Or are there more, subtle, modulations of the vibrato rate?
Thank you, Doctor. This is a high compliment indeed when coming from you!
Phil999 wrote: I would like to know more about your hardware-, software- and MIDI setup, if you feel like telling here.
What I will tell you is that, at the moment, my main wind controller is a Steiner EVI (a discontinued item, unfortunately) that I've modified externally to add additional continuous controllers as well as to access the mouthpiece's control voltage, allowing an output volume of higher resolution (it outputs 1000's of levels of volume instead of the paltry 128 we've all put up with). Dynamic controller messages (cc7/11/2) are now sent along with their LSB counterparts. I am currently experimenting with these additional levels to help shape articulations in real-time (as an alternative to the more common approach of tying preset articulations to velocity).
Because the Sample Modeling developers have included a great range of timbre with The Trumpet, a practical use for the LSBs could be to provide additional, strategically placed amplification along the crossfades to afford a much higher resolution/range of volume (stretching the crossfade). I'm still working on a real-time breath/wind implementation of this, but creating curves offline yield smooth, natural sounding results.
The software I've written for use with my wind controller includes the intermediary software mentioned earlier (which is actually non-controller specific) as well as the device driver that is mainly used to replace the wind controller's internal velocity/volume algorithms and manage the additional continuous controllers.
Now that I've told you, I must find you and eliminate you. So please kindly provide your address and daytime telephone number so that I may dispatch my henchmen.
- David
thank you very much for your detailed description. I was hesitating to ask, I appreciate that very much that you share your secrets. I'm even risking my life for this.
So you are not modifying the Steiner with MIDI-controllers (like those here http://www.doepfer.de/home_e.htm, under "Products" and "DIY/OEM"), you work with CV and custom AD-converters?
Now that I have the occasion, there's a question I wanted to ask since some time: do valve controllers like the Steiner interpret the amount of valve "angle", or is it note on/off like with touch sensor wind controllers?
Your approach for a finer volume control is interesting. Although I must say that the MIDI resolution is quite satisfying for me (EWI 4000s), but I welcome bigger resolution. Now I find it a bit difficult to create very silent notes, I have to blow a bit harder to make the software react (after having set the sensitivity inside the EWI to the most sensitive and still playable position).
---
I have no big secrets in my MIDI setup, I'll share it anyway:
The EWI goes through a Doepfer Drehbank in a MIDI-interface of my file-server. Three small programs work together so that I can change the MIDI-channel with the six switches of my joystick (channels 1-6). Then it goes to the DAW, where I can quickly switch between several trumpets and saxes.
There are more controllers, and more to come, but this is the main setup.
Thanks again, and I wish you much success with your modifications and improvements.
Thanks!
thanks for all your input, though I have to admit that in the last few posts I couldn´t quite follow any more as a Midi newbie
Did I understand correctly though that to use The Trumpet´s own vibrato I´d need to assign that to an expression pedal to use it in addition to the EWI´s controls?
One last question: would you be willing to share any best practices regarding your specific settings in the Trumpet GUI? Is anyone who´s playing the EWI USB willing to share their settings within the ARIA interface (the setup controls and controller configuration for the EWI)?
Thank you !!
boogieman.
Correct.
Phil999 wrote: do valve controllers like the Steiner interpret the amount of valve "angle", or is it note on/off like with touch sensor wind controllers?
on/off.
Phil999 wrote: the MIDI resolution is quite satisfying for me (EWI 4000s), but I welcome bigger resolution
I do, too. It's my assertion that being trapped in the 7-bit world is the main reason why emulating acoustic instruments ultra-realistically in real-time is so difficult. It is the seemingly infinite tiny steps in dynamics that play such a large part in shaping the sound and expressiveness of such instruments.
Phil999 wrote: Thanks again, and I wish you much success with your modifications and improvements.
You're welcome and thanks!
jorgitosax wrote: does your modified EVI respond correctly to humming with sample modelled software? I´m a litlle fustrated with my akai 4000, since it does not send out defined enought volume control. Humming works ok ONLY with internal sounds, and humming is an important thing for me as a performer.
I'm still experimenting to see if the voice-created modulations to the analog cv can be practically co-opted as an additional continuous controller message. At this point, I have no idea if this will ever yield fruitful results. The response time of MIDI is just not fast enough to use the modulations caused by the voice and that is why it is only used with the internal sounds of your instrument (the Steiner has no internal sounds).
It seems we both share the same goal of real-time playing while utilizing all the great expressive features included with our synths. Controlling every cc of The Trumpet in real-time (with keyboard or wind controller) is not possible because there are so many great cc's available and humans lack the appendages! However, The Trumpet does an amazing job of reacting to player data to change its sound just as a real trumpet would. I'd say it "heralds" a new era in realism.
boogieman wrote: Did I understand correctly though that to use The Trumpet's own vibrato I'd need to assign that to an expression pedal to use it in addition to the EWI's controls?
This is soley dependent on your particular wind controller. You simply need to find out what MIDI continuous controller messages your EWI sends and if any of them can be remapped to affect the vibrato controllers in the software. Creating vibrato can be done in three ways:
1) By setting Vibrato Rate and/or Vibrato Intensity (cc19 and cc1, but you can remap these to different controller numbers)
2) By setting Dynamic Pitch and modifying your Dynamics (cc24 and cc2, also can be remapped)
3) By sending pitchbend (not using The Trumpet's vibrato)
Experiment with all three to see you how like them. I prefer method #1 for emulating hand vibratos (utilizing intermediary software mentioned in earlier posts in this thread) and #2 for emulating the more pitchy but finely rate-controlled lip vibrato. I perform both of these pedal-lessly (yes, I typed that word). But that's just my approach and I'll even switch it up from time to time. Others like using pitchbend to create vibrato and still others prefer to use pedals. It's all up to you! Check the updated manual for more info on vibrato.
boogieman wrote: would you be willing to share any best practices regarding your specific settings in the Trumpet GUI?
I certainly wouldn't lay claim to knowing that but I would say that choosing the wind controller mode (from the dropdown), then lowering Dynamic Pitch to around 30 and ensuring Release Time is set to 0 is a good starting point for most wind controllers. Hopefully, Phil and others will chime in with their preferences.
- Vel. to Dynamics 0
- Dynamic Pitch 78 (varying, but I like it over 70)
- Attack Pitch Mod. 45
- Transition Flutter 68
and about CV and converting this voltage into digital data: most interesting what you do, webbiedave. I recently bought a MIDI-to-CV converter and was quite surprised how flat the response is when I play a hardware synthesizer with the EWI. I did not buy the converter for this purpose, but I was surprised anyway. I expected more.
Now I understand better why I didn't use MIDI much until 2004 when I got my first laptop with sequencer software. CV has endless resolution and is more musical. It has slight fluctuations and changes after time, while still being highly reliable and user friendly. One just needs to care for proper connections between the devices and modules.
But of course, for any other task that does not need "fine" input from a musician, MIDI is perfect.
Can you tell us what kind of AD-converters you use?
Maxim but I have no particular allegiance to them whatsoever. Just turns out I've used their ADC ICs on numerous occasions.
MAX187BCPA+-ND (12BIT 5V 75KSPS 8-DIP)
MAX1147BEUP+-ND (14BIT 116KSPS 20-TSSOP)
Both are available from digikey and you can find schematics on maxim's site. Also, there are USB based ADC's available that you might want to look into.
For the moment I leave this "enhanced MIDI controller" project, the EWI 4000s with its MIDI limitations is still enough responsive for my talent. Like all EWI players, I love it more and more.
But keep us informed about your controllers, the interest in what you're doing is there.
Can any of the users involved please post an update on this case and the improve in wind controllers?
Thank you :?:
As for the Trumpet settings in Kontakt player here is what I found to be relevant for vibrato:
2-3 MIDI Parameters
1 Use Windcontroller (as opposed to keyboard)
Pitch Sensitivity (knob) to about 200 percent
2 Controllers 1
Vibrato Intensity CC1 (knob) to about 65
Vibrato Rate CC19 (knob) to 0 or higher
Try experimenting with the Vibrato Rate CC19 starting with zero, so that there is no automatic vibrato (or very little) and therefore your bite (Jaw Vibrato) sets the depth and rate. This should be the most natural sounding vibrato and works best for lower notes where the vibrato should be slower and therefore most obvious when not working right. However, if you increase CC19 setting to 2, 3, 5, etc. you will get a continuous vibrato that makes the sound richer but may not sound as natural for longer sustained lower pitched notes.
These same parameters exist for the Trombone and French Horn although the knob locations may be slightly different.
I hope this helps.
Dan